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Old 07-19-12, 06:46 PM  
slysam
 
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Originally Posted by Pratima View Post
All this makes sense. By field test, do you mean recording my HR while doing various activities and using those as my targets?

And I would tend to think that if my zone for let's say biking is lower than for step, that maybe step is a more intense workout for me? Maybe that just means it's better for long, steady-state workouts rather than short, intense ones (which is what I'm going for now).
I'm interested in more guidance on this too. I have browsed a couple books on heart rate monitor training, but the ones I've seen are all focused on triathalon training, or walking, running, cycling, swimming, rowing and cross country skiiing with little mention of anything else. I also talked to a friend who competes in triathalons about this when learning about my hrm. I guess most of the information is really oriented to certain sports so it is hard to say how it applies to a lot of what we vidiots might do (other than those actiivties).

But the common theme applied to triathalons seems to be (I am guessing they are the main market for heart rate monitoring books using different activities)... The demands placed on the body swimming vs cycling vs running are different. With aerobic exercise one reason the heart rate increases is to supply blood and oxygen to the rest of the body especially the muscles working. Also core temperature/body heat is a factor among others. With cycling, you might get hot and work hard, but most of the exertion is in the lower body from peddling so there is a limit to how much oxygen you need and it isn't weight bearing. Swimming is full body so you need more oxygen, but it isn't weight bearing and the water usually has a cooling effect so the heart rate tends not to raise as much. Running is weight bearing, full body and you can get hot so the heart rate tends to be highest of the three. So if someone was very fit and equally conditioned for all three activities, then run, swim, and cycle as hard and fast as possible, they would still achieve a different maximum heart rate for each of the three activities. I don't know if or how that effects calorie burn, in a lab they would measure calorie burn by oxygen consumption and hrm's estimate oxygen consumption based on heart rate. (Is that right?)

I don't know how that applies to a lot of vidiot activities. But I would guess your heart rate during step would be more like running or jogging than the other two triathalon activities so you would be able to achieve a higher heart rate than cycling (unless it is a very hot day or something). I don't cycle very often so I have no idea how it compares for me personally. But I don't know whether you would need a different maximum heart rate/zones for step aerobics vs zumba vs hi-lo aerobics vs kettlebells vs kickboxing, etc. I am curious though.
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Old 07-20-12, 01:55 PM  
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I haven't done any research or anything yet. A good place to start seems to be just wearing the HRM for a variety of activities and recording the data. The Motoactv site will automatically do that. I believe it also allows you to mark whether you found a particular workout challenging or not.

I meant to wear it today when I lifted weights (CLX Burn Circuit 3) but forgot. That would be a really interesting comparison--cardio vs. weights. I was thinking about how instructors often say working large muscle groups gets your HR higher and now I can see whether that's true.

And that makes me go back to the question of subjective vs. objective measures. Algorithms for calories burned aside, I would like to be able to compare various workouts and my objective vs. subjective assessments of them. Is CLX cardio REALLY hard? Or should I be doing something else?
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Old 07-23-12, 12:03 PM  
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Not sure if anyone's still following this thread, but I just had to post some of the data I've collected. All of these were using my Motoactv with heart rate strap.

CLX cardio
24 minutes
Average HR: 135
Calories Burned: 234

CLX Burn Circuit 1
34 minutes
Average HR: 114
Calories Burned: 254

Treadmill run
28 minutes, approximately 2.84 miles (manually entered mileage based on treadmill data)
Average HR: 169
Calories Burned: 229

Breathless Body, 2 segments
11 minutes
Average HR: 141
Calories Burned: 114

This makes no sense to me! I need to do some research on how this might be calculating calories burned. How could I possibly burn the most calories lifting weights? FWIW, the Motoactv does list specific activities, so each time I used the HRM, I told it what I was doing (aerobics, indoor run, weight training, etc.). This week, I'm going to try an elliptical workout and I'll do a run but not adjust the mileage.

If anyone has any insight into these numbers, I'd love to hear it.
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Old 07-23-12, 12:45 PM  
slysam
 
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This makes no sense to me! I need to do some research on how this might be calculating calories burned. How could I possibly burn the most calories lifting weights? FWIW, the Motoactv does list specific activities, so each time I used the HRM, I told it what I was doing (aerobics, indoor run, weight training, etc.). This week, I'm going to try an elliptical workout and I'll do a run but not adjust the mileage.

If anyone has any insight into these numbers, I'd love to hear it.
Interesting! So my heart rate monitor is just a heart rate monitor and you don't input the activity. It reports average heart rate, maximum heart rate for that workout (meaning the highest my hear beat was during that particular workout session not actual maximum), time spent in each of three zones, estimate of percent of fat burned, and calorie burn estimate. And I actually was surprised when I was doing Venus Index that those workouts burned more calories than most of my cardio workouts at the time. It depends a little on how long your rests are though, if I look the recommended rests it decreased the hrm burn, but often I would superset as I get impatient resting and would follow upper body immediately with lower body, and this is when I saw the high calorie burn. These workouts do have a lot of lower body compound and combination movements though. Is CLX similar?

But you don't actually burn the most lifting weights according to your hrm, remember your durations are different... You burn more per minute with Breathless Body--if you did 33 minutes of it you would burn 342 calories compared with your 254 calories from 34 minutes of CLX Burn Circuit 1. Also, I am not sure whether you have noticed this, but often someones heart rate increases with duration of activity, I think I've heard it called drift. So a longer workout often has a higher heart rate towards the end, and if you follow one workout with another the second workout will often have a bit of a boost before you get started. So if you did these on different days with similar weather it is probably a fair comparison, but if some were add on's the add on might have a slightly inflated average heart rate and burn.
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Old 07-23-12, 01:18 PM  
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These workouts do have a lot of lower body compound and combination movements though. Is CLX similar?
I'm doing the Burn Circuit workouts right now and they consist of compound movements. Today's workout was chest and rear delt, so I did a lot of things like lunges with rear delt lifts, chest flies with bridge, sumo squats with hip lift, etc. There aren't really rests between the moves, though it does take some time to set up the next move and switch weights.

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Also, I am not sure whether you have noticed this, but often someones heart rate increases with duration of activity, I think I've heard it called drift. So a longer workout often has a higher heart rate towards the end, and if you follow one workout with another the second workout will often have a bit of a boost before you get started. So if you did these on different days with similar weather it is probably a fair comparison, but if some were add on's the add on might have a slightly inflated average heart rate and burn.
The weather's been pretty much the same here (hot) since May, so I think it is a fair comparison. Never heard of drift, but it sounds like a good argument for add-ons, doesn't it? Or am I misunderstanding?

I pulled a screenshot from each of these workouts from the Motoactv site. I put them into PDFs to be sure most people could open them and had to split the files to make them small enough. Anyway, you can see the HR graphs on them. On the site, you can roll over the lines to see exact numbers. The main thing I'm getting from these is that none of my workouts seem to be quite the interval-type I thought they were!

Slysam, I'm totally enjoying all this info. Do you know of any websites I can learn more from?

Ooo, I just found that the site can also tell me about zones. Do I need this info? What do I do with it?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf HR_1.pdf (71.8 KB, 291 views)
File Type: pdf HR_2.pdf (74.8 KB, 254 views)
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Old 07-23-12, 01:48 PM  
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see red below.

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All this makes sense. By field test, do you mean recording my HR while doing various activities and using those as my targets?on one of the days that you do that activity, say biking, you should go "all out" for 2 minutes, meaning pedal as quickly as you can, and log the data somewhere, like highest HR, lowest HR, and since you're tracking calories, write that down too. i'd do it for step aerobics, running, walking, stair climbing, biking outside, stationary bike inside, rebounding, jump roping, etc. you won't need to do it in time with an exercise video, just make sure you're warmed up, set your stopwatch, and then do the activity all out for 2 minutes. Sally Edwards, renowned heart zone trainer, has a lot of tips on determining your zones using the field test method.

And I would tend to think that if my zone for let's say biking is lower than for step, that maybe step is a more intense workout for me? Maybe that just means it's better for long, steady-state workouts rather than short, intense ones (which is what I'm going for now). yes, step might be more intense compared to biking. as a side note, on my stationary bike, i can easily get into a very high HR SOONER compared with step aerobics, but i don't feel like i am huffing and puffing as i do on step. not sure why - maybe someone can elaborate.

With limited time, I'm trying to figure out how to make the most of my workouts. I'm a little surprised at the data from the CLX cardio but really, I don't have anything to compare it to yet. I'll go to the gym Sunday and see how that compares.

On a semi-related note, the one day I managed to run outside (before it got way too hot) I went about 2.5 miles and was EXHAUSTED compared to the 2.5 miles I'd been doing indoors. My guess is that the impact wore me out. I wish I had HR info from that day too.exhaustion could be related to humidity too.
jump roping is an excellent short duration, high calorie burn activity, by the way. even if you do it in 1 minute segments, it's excellent.
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Old 07-23-12, 01:59 PM  
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in a lab they would measure calorie burn by oxygen consumption and hrm's estimate oxygen consumption based on heart rate. (Is that right?)
you can calculate your VO2 Max with just your HRM, the formulas, and writing it down. there's a book i posted about that helps you do this, and at the same time, it helps you to build an aerobic base (ABB). *SEE BELOW.

*found it and more discussion on VF regarding calories burned, VO2 Max, aerobic base building:

**Richard L. Brown:
http://96.30.11.231/~vfwnk/forum/sho...2A#post1275613

Vo2 max formula:
http://96.30.11.231/~vfwnk/forum/sho...2A#post1549285

VF Thread:
http://96.30.11.231/~vfwnk/forum/sho...2A#post1086877

**Pratima, this book (i found it in our public library) has some interesting reviews on amazon, not from olympic athletes, but regular people like us, who have calculated exactly how much exercise and the intensity, in order to lose weight.
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Old 07-23-12, 02:26 PM  
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Jeannine, I'm going to have to think about your notes in red for a while, especially the first set about the field test method. All I can think about exertion for step vs. bike is that you're using those large muscle groups to lift you, so maybe something about the way you're working those muscles makes you huff and puff?

I tried the calculator you linked to (non-VO2 version) and it gave me relatively close numbers. One thing I found really interesting was the information on net vs. gross calorie burn. That seems to explain why treadmills estimate high. Their calculator was a little lower (211 vs. 234) for calorie burn for my CLX cardio workout so I do kind of wonder if maybe my Motoactv is also showing gross calorie burn.

I read through the info on calculating VO2 Max (walking, running, etc.). Might have to try that sometime when I can walk a mile by myself (without children, mail, etc.). I could easily use my Motoactv's GPS to mark out the distance, so at least that part would be accurate. I have yet to do that to compare the distances it gives me vs. the Fitbit.

Oh, and when I did my outdoor run, it was REALLY dry here still. Would that mean I'd be less exhausted? Humidity is high now, around 60% (monsoon season) and temps are still 100+ so I haven't been outdoors much.
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Old 07-23-12, 04:23 PM  
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Originally Posted by Pratima View Post
Jeannine, I'm going to have to think about your notes in red for a while, especially the first set about the field test method. All I can think about exertion for step vs. bike is that you're using those large muscle groups to lift you, so maybe something about the way you're working those muscles makes you huff and puff?
maybe. i'll have to test myself again & compare the 2.

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Oh, and when I did my outdoor run, it was REALLY dry here still. Would that mean I'd be less exhausted? Humidity is high now, around 60% (monsoon season) and temps are still 100+ so I haven't been outdoors much.
do you have high elevation? because supposedly, if you are, there's less oxygen for you. another thing is that if you had less sleep prior to that run, it might have factored into your exhaustedness. so many factors, i know.

some sample exercise logs i've seen (for triathletes, for example) really track all kinds of factors like sleep, mood, etc. i know they're monitoring performance. i'm sure if i were more meticulous, i'd be able to pinpoint exactly when i had a good and productive exercise day.
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Old 07-24-12, 10:27 AM  
slysam
 
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I tried the calculator you linked to (non-VO2 version) and it gave me relatively close numbers. One thing I found really interesting was the information on net vs. gross calorie burn. That seems to explain why treadmills estimate high. Their calculator was a little lower (211 vs. 234) for calorie burn for my CLX cardio workout so I do kind of wonder if maybe my Motoactv is also showing gross calorie burn.
My heart rate monitor (a Polar) also gives gross and when I learned this from their product forum all but one or two of their hrm's used gross. My fitbit gives gross, I believe as well. But these still give lower estimates for me than cardio machines and activity databases tend to give. For a 30 minute workout, gross burn would be adding less than 30 calories for me (this depends on your stats) and for an hour a little less than 60. I use to be concerned about it, but have since realized it is barely significant unless the workout duration is long. It sounds like your Motoactv might be gross as are many devices, it might say in their product information or their forum if they have one.

Thanks for the links and the formulas Jeannine!
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