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Old 05-06-18, 03:36 PM  
hch
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Let's talk about "old talk"

Some recent threads remind me (in different ways) of the subject of "old talk," which I don't think has been discussed before here. (I first found related online content inadvertently several months ago. A VF thread reminded me of a certain phrase related to "fat talk." Searching with the phrase led me to someone's personal piece that also mentioned "old talk.")

Old Talk: The New Brand of Body Bashing

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IT’S NO SECRET THAT public body shaming as well as personal forms of bad body talk are rampant in our culture, especially involving the f-word (fat, in this case). Now, there’s a new wrinkle: “old talk, ” a form of speech or conversation that’s related to but also distinct from “fat talk. ” Simply put, old talk reflects anxiety about not measuring up to the youthful component of our culture’s thin-young body ideal. At its heart, old talk reflects anxiety about getting older but especially about looking older. You might hear someone make comments such as “I look so old and haggard,” “Ugh! I hate these wrinkles around my eyes” or “Getting older isn’t pretty! My breasts are sagging, and my belly is getting mushier.”
(I should clarify here that the term "fat talk" can be a little misleading. Different people use the term in different ways. The term has been used for figure dissatisfaction generally, not just perceived fat, such that "my X is too scrawny!" could also be an example.)


“Do I Look OLD In This?” The Role of Old Talk In Our Work with Young Women


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New research led by psychology professor Carolyn Black Becker of Trinity University labels my conversation with my friend “old talk.” Old talk is distinct from yet connected to the more widely-acknowledged “fat talk,” a phrase used to describe denigrating conversation related to one’s body weight. Think comments like “Do I look fat in this?” and “I hate my thunder thighs!” Old talk, on the other hand, highlights our cultural obsession with both thinness and youth, leaving women fretting over wrinkles and gray hairs in addition to their weight.

The study, which was published earlier this year in the Journal of Eating Disorders, surveyed over 900 women between the ages of 18 and 87. Participants reported on a variety of measures including age, weight, body satisfaction, engagement in fat talk and old talk, and eating disorder behavior. The researchers found that, while younger women tend to bash their bodies through fat talk, older women engage in similar negativity through old talk. Of all women surveyed, a whopping 81% reported fat talking at least occasionally, and two-thirds reported old talking.
Why Have I Gone From ‘Fat Talk’ to ‘Old Talk’?

Quote:
But Dr. Becker said she had also spoken with women who made it through their younger years largely unscathed only to start worrying about their looks in middle age. “They didn’t expect it,” she said. “They didn’t anticipate it.”
Something else from the YWCA source:

Quote:
If we want to instill self-acceptance in the young women we serve – if we truly want to show them that all sizes and ages are beautiful – then we need to start with our own thoughts and speech. Becker points out that “we pay lip service to the idea that all bodies are accepted, but every time we engage in old talk or fat talk we are personally expressing confirmation of the thin-young ideal.”
(One resolution of mine is that I'll try to examine what messages fitness resources are sending about "old talk" as much as I'm already doing with "fat talk.")
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Old 05-06-18, 07:13 PM  
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This is an interesting topic. I agree that "old talk" is real. I don't know that it always replaces "fat talk," however, unfortunately I think it sometimes accompanies it depending on one's experience as a younger woman. It all comes down to societal pressure on women of all ages to be "attractive," "vibrant," "youthful," etc. in other words to meet some unattainable and pretty random standard set by some anonymous authority. I expect it was useful concept when humans needed to reproduce to perpetuate the species and looking "fetching and fertile" was a necessity for survival, but it doesn't seem we've evolved out of that basic perception, particularly as it applies to women.

I wish I was self confident enough to 100% avoid bashing myself for my fat stores/wrinkles/saggy skin, but I'm maybe 95% there. It's a work in progress.
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Old 05-06-18, 08:15 PM  
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I'm reasonably certain that growing older isn't a huge problem for me, but I do find it kind of unnerving when I look in the mirror and see certain aspects of my grandmother's face looking back at me

It's not so much about getting old, just that my face is changing with age, and I guess I really do look like her.

We don't have many photos of her as a younger woman, so I really don't have a good sense of how she or her siblings changed as they aged.
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Old 05-07-18, 09:51 AM  
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I never thought I was vain, until I started seeing someone else's face in the mirror. I don't recognize her. I don't know how you get used to that.
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Old 05-07-18, 02:24 PM  
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Originally Posted by cataddict View Post
It all comes down to societal pressure on women of all ages to be "attractive," "vibrant," "youthful," etc. in other words to meet some unattainable and pretty random standard set by some anonymous authority.
Very well stated. It goes without saying that this pressure is ubiquitous in the fitness and exercise video industry. I've seen ageist comments here on VF about some popular instructors who are now in their 60s. We should be the last people who insist that fitness = looking eternally 25.
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Old 05-07-18, 04:03 PM  
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Beauty industry giants (Revlon, L'Oreal, etc.) are making millions/billions of dollars selling the latest wrinkle creams (miracles in a jar) to women in their 40's, 50's, 60's and so on. Who is the target audience for the Home Shopping Networks...women (and likely older.) I went from being a fashion victim to (more recently) a skincare junkie and I've never been vain.

I am finding that as I age it becomes more and more difficult to get to the weight off around my mid section. And, I've always had "thunder thighs" thanks to genetics. Most of my problem is with diet, despite the fact that I exercise almost daily. But, now my goals are more about moving to feel better, no matter what happens on the scale instead of trying to fit into "skinny jeans" which look ridiculous on me, anyway.
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Old 05-07-18, 06:31 PM  
annette
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Originally Posted by warriorprincess View Post
I never thought I was vain, until I started seeing someone else's face in the mirror. I don't recognize her. I don't know how you get used to that.
Yes, this. I try to not let it bother me and most days I'm OK but other days I think "how/when exactly did this happen"? I'll be 60 this year so I guess I better become more OK with it than not.

I think I put the pressure on myself. My husband continuously tells me I'm beautiful. I tell him he needs to put on his glasses.
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Old 05-07-18, 08:23 PM  
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I think I put the pressure on myself. My husband continuously tells me I'm beautiful. I tell him he needs to put on his glasses.
Annette, I know you are speaking tongue in cheek, but this brings to mind a conversation I had with my boyfriend recently. He is the sweetest, most complimentary man ever. He showers me with lovely compliments all the time, including calling me beautiful. He confided in me that he was very appreciative of the fact that I didn't "negate" his compliments with negative responses.

I think sometimes as women we struggle with accepting a compliment gracefully, feeling we are being conceited or boastful if we don't disagree or downplay the compliment. I have made it a priority to never say anything back to a compliment from him that doesn't express my pleasure to him that he is saying nice things to me. I am learning this is also a great way to feel better about myself, and even realize that at 61 I'm still lovely and attractive to him. And that is what matters!
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Old 05-07-18, 09:12 PM  
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Don't get me started...

I never thought of myself aging until a group of managers started hiring people in their early twenties calling them bright, smart, intelligent. They had "new ideas, fresh ideas, etc." Anyone who wasn't a newbie was DOA. One day one of the older women (age 32) mentioned to the 24 year old, that when she or I commented or gave information it wasn't seen as valid. Ten minutes later he paraphrase the same comment or idea, he was praised to the highest. He commented that he had noticed.

Oh yeah the managers were men 55 and older.
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Old 05-08-18, 07:52 AM  
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Don't get me started...

I never thought of myself aging until a group of managers started hiring people in their early twenties calling them bright, smart, intelligent. They had "new ideas, fresh ideas, etc." Anyone who wasn't a newbie was DOA. One day one of the older women (age 32) mentioned to the 24 year old, that when she or I commented or gave information it wasn't seen as valid. Ten minutes later he paraphrase the same comment or idea, he was praised to the highest. He commented that he had noticed.

Oh yeah the managers were men 55 and older.
Each point you mentioned is illegal. Age 32 is old? I hope someone brings an EEOC claim for this behavior.

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Originally Posted by Pam61 View Post
Beauty industry giants (Revlon, L'Oreal, etc.) are making millions/billions of dollars selling the latest wrinkle creams (miracles in a jar) to women in their 40's, 50's, 60's and so on. Who is the target audience for the Home Shopping Networks...women (and likely older.) I went from being a fashion victim to (more recently) a skincare junkie and I've never been vain.

I am finding that as I age it becomes more and more difficult to get to the weight off around my mid section. And, I've always had "thunder thighs" thanks to genetics. Most of my problem is with diet, despite the fact that I exercise almost daily. But, now my goals are more about moving to feel better, no matter what happens on the scale instead of trying to fit into "skinny jeans" which look ridiculous on me, anyway.
And using 20-somethings as models for them, or eh .... "reconstituted" older models.
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