If you're still doing crunches, watch this Stuart McGill Video

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by kitty12

I consider Core Fusion to be crunch based. Also, Jill Miller has plenty of crunches in her work. Do you do those or skip those portions? So, that gets to...what is the definition of a crunch.

The issue of concern with McGill, from all I've read and heard, is Spinal Flexion.

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by kitty12

That's kind of along the lines of my thought. I would like more research than one person. I know he is an expert, but no one knows everything.

Also, what exactly is a crunch in the context of this research. I don't do any true crunches really, but I do many things as shown in the ACE link I posted earlier - and I consider almost all of them to be crunch variations. The ACE article also stated that crunches weren't a good exercise, but they show plenty of variations. So, what is the definition of a crunch in the research. Is it just a basic crunch? Does it include things like bicycles, crunches with twists, holding a crunch for an extended period of time (as in Core Fusion), pilates roll-ups, etc.

I also believe that things in moderation are generally OK. The spine is meant to move all different directions. If we ignore one direction, will we eventually create other issues?

There is also a difference between what someone with a lower back disc problem should do (or other lower back issue) versus someone with no major issues.

Again, the ACE article is pretty old. I was certified in just 2008 and ACE now has a brand new manual which is 95 percent indistinguishable from the previous manual.

This is because they are embracing the current research, have taken a much more functional approach (and much of the manual references Grey Cook, noted Physical Therapist/Trainer and creator of the "Functional Movement Screen").

ACE is my organization, and I'm really happy to see they were willing to objectively look at what is current and base their new approach on that. Of course as I mentioned they sometimes have to look at some pragmatic issues (like the fact that folks may still insist on crunches so they still had info on at least the "best" way to do it, though they do mention it's a controversial exercise ).

Fortunately I have been keeping up with the latest training info over the past couple of years so I was already up to date with this material, but my point is that you keep quoting an article that to me is out of date.

This is also why they put out monthly newsletters and constantly send us information via the internet. The fitness industry is constantly changing and our understanding of various effects of training on the body, both good and bad.

Think about it. Not that long ago you had most people training from a bodybuilding model. So muscle isolation was the big thing. The more you could isolate a muscle the better.

BUT, then people realized that all those machines, especially the ones that have you sitting, tend to turn off the core. They don't help your body learn to move in a synergistic fashion. Now, if you sprinkle in some isolated hypertrophy work here and there no big deal, it's not blatantly dangerous, just not very functional. Though I do believe those loaded crunch machines and loaded spinal rotation machines should be thrown into a big pile!

When I go to a gym and see a trainer walking their client through a machine circuit session after session, my first thought is: "There is a trainer who hasn't kept up with the research or is just being lazy".

It's inexcusable to me in the same way that a doctor using outdated surgical techniques that would make a patient suffer needlessly would surely make a more diligent surgeon shake his head.

To put it in a medical context, imagine if someone could have a laproscopic surgery for something with far less recovery time but you have a doctor with the attitude of "I'm going to make a huge incision, with triple the recovery time to resolve this issue because this is how I've always done it and it worked for me and no one died yet!". Granted that is a more dramatic example than someone just working out on machines, but to me it's a matter of trying to use the most effective methods possible with the least risk.

As far as the spine moving in different directions. It's meant to move as part of a synergistic whole.

If you pick up a box and have to put it on a table behind you, most of that movement should be coming from the hips, not the spine. So it may have some subtle movement which is fine, but if you try to do all of the rotation with the spine itself you are putting the spine at risk for injury.

Take care,

Scott

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by Lucky Star

Scott your abs look darn good to me! And also importantly, you're keeping your spine healthy.

Thanks Gina, that's kind of you to say!

I am definitely not blessed genetically (for example I have always worked my legs pretty hard and they are still toothpicks! lol ) but I'm grateful that I'm healthy so I try not to get too frustrated.

My best friend could look at weights and his body just grows, I've been training diligently for about 25 years and my gains are very very slow even though I'm relatively strong.

But again, being healthy and fit is the most important thing to me in terms of the whole training thing (it's not the most important thing in my life, my family is what I care about most!)


Best,

Scott

[Lucky Star]

Well Scott, you seem to share a similar physique to my 55yo husband's (who's thinner than you and all about kettlebells right now) and, yeah, he's got rather thin legs as well. But he's mighty strong as I suspect you are too!

I am definitely not blessed genetically

He he, my husband says just the opposite. As he looks at all the heavy-to-obese men we know - many of whom unfortunately now have health issues - he says "I realize how lucky I am to have been blessed with slender genes."

It's all relative!

[Lucky Star]

Originally Posted by Yogadad

But again, being healthy and fit is the most important thing to me in terms of the whole training thing (it's not the most important thing in my life, my family is what I care about most!)

Ah, you remind me of my husband more and more.

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by Lucky Star

Well Scott, you seem to share a similar physique to my 55yo husband's (and he's all about kettlebells right now) and, yeah, he's got rather thin legs as well. But he's mighty strong as I suspect you are too! He he, my husband says just the opposite. As he looks at all the heavy-to-obese men we know - many of whom unfortunately now have health issues - he says "I realize how lucky I am to have been blessed with slender genes."

It's all relative!

Hi Gina,

That's awesome that your husband's into kettlebells!

I know what your husband means about all the heavy/obese men. But while I was never obese, I was about 45 pounds heavier about 25 years ago and these days I actually gain weight really easily.

I have to be very diligent, keep a food log of everything I eat and train daily to stay at this weight/body composition.

It sounds like your husband is doing amazing!

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by Lucky Star

Ah, you remind me of my husband more and more.

Thanks Gina!

[sandym]

Dr. Jolie Bookspan has tons to say about forward flexion and crunches--and none of it positive. She recommends planks and side planks for abs as some of the non-harmful exercises to do.

www.drbookspan.com

[Gardengirl]

Thanks for the link, Scott. Very interesting! I paid a visit to Bed, Bath & Beyond and picked up the furniture movers as I would really like to give them a try. And when I'm not using them, I'll be moving furniture! Lol!

I guess my neck is my weak link because crunches tire my neck before anything else. I enjoy doing planks so much more. Gunnar Peterson does a move where you do a lying wood chop to work the obliques. Do you see any problem with those kinds of moves?

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by Gardengirl

Thanks for the link, Scott. Very interesting! I paid a visit to Bed, Bath & Beyond and picked up the furniture movers as I would really like to give them a try. And when I'm not using them, I'll be moving furniture! Lol!

I guess my neck is my weak link because crunches tire my neck before anything else. I enjoy doing planks so much more. Gunnar Peterson does a move where you do a lying wood chop to work the obliques. Do you see any problem with those kinds of moves?

Hi Judy,

What did they charge for those at Bed, Bath and Beyond? I'm curious if they are around the same as Lowes.

Well, I'm the same w/ the neck thing because of my injury and cervical spine surgery.

While I definitely no longer advocate crunches, if someone was to do them I would recommend they place their hands under their chin (making fists, palms down). This will at least take the strain off of the neck.

I would probably not do those woodchops from Gunnar. I have the core secrets videos and I know that move. That is probably not the best move in the world to be honest. Now, standing woodchops where you rotate your hips are not only fine but I highly recommend them. They teach you to use your body synergistically in rotation so that you aren't putting stress on the spine.

Anyway,here's some thoughts on alternative to that lying woodchop.

A better way to work the obliques, in my opinion, is to stand in an athletic position (feet a bit wider than hip width, sinking slightly into the hips with the knees bent, spine neutral), hold the swiss ball in front of you and without moving your hips or shoulders, shake the ball vigorously from side to side.

This works best with a "Stay ball" w/ sand inside (or a BOSU Ballast ball). This creates a bit more of an intense perturbation, but you can definitely use a regular swiss ball or med-ball as well.

What you are doing is using those oblique muscles to "resist" the rotation.

I teach this to my clients and they feel their obliques BIG time!

Also, you can do split stance rows and presses, both bilateral (both arms at once) or unilateral). This works great w/ a strong resistance band anchored in a door (best to use Slastix covered tubing for safety if possible). But either way, as you pull or push, you are resisting the force that would want to rotate your spine.

Here's an example of a split stance unilateral row:

So lets say you are facing where the tubing is anchored. You would place your left foot forward, right foot back (this is our split stance). You would want to row with your right arm (so you row w/ the arm opposite the forward foot).

As you row, the force will want to turn your torso to the left (counterclockwise rotation). However by stabilizing your torso you are creating a solid base. This is literally working your ability to stabilize from your feet upwards.

Of course another exercise to work the obliques are side planks. If you've never done them, start with either both legs or at least the bottom leg bent and start by holding it for maybe 5 seconds then lower. Do this several times eventually working up to longer holds.

Eventually you can actually do a side plank with both legs extended and a stability ball squeezed between your feet to add some extra instability!

Hope some of this was useful!

Best,

Scott