If you're still doing crunches, watch this Stuart McGill Video

[joyfirst]

I mostly hate crunches, because they hurt my neck. But I do like standing crunches(like in Ballet Body by Jennifer Galardi). I am not a big fan of Planks either, because while they work nicely on abs, they put too much pressure on the wrists. So I have to do the ones on arms. I would defentely buy a workout dvd that doesn't include any of these, but work abs nice.

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by HelloKitty88

I don't have any issues with this video...in fact I agree with it. BUT, I also think that crunches done in moderation isn't going to hurt the spine. To NEVER do a crunch is a bit extreme and not realistic..especially in the group fitness world and in the professional group fitness world. I don't think that doing a few crunches in an abs workout or class setting is going to cause major damage to the spine. Doing 100's of them day after day, yeah I can totally see how that would destroy the spine over the long hall.

Same with doing crunches on a stability ball...come on...a set or two isn't going cause the kind of damage that he's describing. I think there is something called "the middle of the road" and that is completely being missed in the fitness world.

My issue with this kind of advice is that they say don't do crunches on the floor or a ball but, all the BOSU stuff is never touched nor picked at. How can doing a set or two of good quality crunches on the floor or a ball be any more harmful to the spine than doing many of the movements in Pilates. And this point leads me to the underlying content of this kind of video which I"m not even going into on this forum. LOL!

LIke I said, I agree that lots of abs exercises still being done today can be harmful but, I also don't agree some should never be done. Moderation and proper form are two KEY elements in keeping injury free.

Why doesn't this guy pick at kickboxing and give the scoop of what damage it does to the sacrum, spine and hip joints...not to mention the knees?
I take a lot of issue with guys like this in the field picking at one thing but nothing is said about ALL the other programs in the fitness world that are HORRIBLE and word one is never said about them. Sorry, don't mean to be the disagreeing vfer here but...just my opinion.

Hi Kitty (don't know if that's the name you prefer to go by but it's all I have),

First, McGill is a lower back expert (a biomechanist I believe is his title) and considered the BEST in the world at this, he's not just some internet guru writing a blog based on his opinions. We're talking about someone who has researched this meticulously, hand on with patients.

Second: He is particularly concerned with spinal flexion issues and how it relates to spinal injury (so he's not concerned most likely with kickboxing, the BOSU as a specific fitness tool, and the like, not to mention he doesn't claim expertise in knees and hips).

Third: He bases his opinion on what has been uncovered in his research, he's not concerned with what the group fitness world may be doing. That is the group fitness world's problem if they choose to be uninformed. I'm a personal trainer not a group fitness instructor so I can't speak with authority to what they are doing anyway.

Fourth: I'm not sure what underlying content you are referring to, it's pretty straightforward, nothing underlying that I can see. He explains how this type of activity can hurt the spine, no hidden agenda there. His agenda is injury prevention and a better way to protect the spine.

Fifth: I agree with you there is a lot of awful stuff in the fitness world, but again, Stuart McGill and this thread was based on the dangers of the crunch and alternative exercises.

You have to understand that I am not personally attacking you, I'm am speaking specifically about concerns regarding doing exercises that may ultimately be harmful on the spine. If the discs can only take so many repetitions of flexion, then it probably is good practice not to add extra stress to them because once they are damaged they won't heal themselves.

I know, as I mentioned previously in this thread I've had cervical spine surgery, there was nothing except surgery that could repair my neck and it was a miserable experience. Even though I wasn't injured through exercise, I would never knowingly recommend something that could put someone in the position of needing that kind of intervention.

I also feel strongly about distributing this information so that people may avoid doing something that could ultimately be harmful to them.

I agree with you that most likely some crunches here and there aren't what will lead most people to the operating table, BUT I think it is best avoided.

Lastly, I think it's great if you feel that you want to crunch away, but I think it's not a great idea to try to promote a point of view that is not based on research when the most current, cutting edge research proves otherwise.
I for one used to enjoy doing crunches, I was not a "crunch hater", but again, after what I've been through with my spine, I would never risk doing something for myself or clients that is completely unnecessary and may do harm and has very little up-side.


Take care,

Scott

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by joyfirst

I mostly hate crunches, because they hurt my neck. But I do like standing crunches(like in Ballet Body by Jennifer Galardi). I am not a big fan of Planks either, because while they work nicely on abs, they put too much pressure on the wrists. So I have to do the ones on arms. I would defentely buy a workout dvd that doesn't include any of these, but work abs nice.

Hi Joy,

You can do planks on your forearms if you have wrist issues. You can also do plank-rollouts w/ a swiss ball which also wouldn't strain your wrists.

Off to Costco!

Best,

Scott

[neatski]

Originally Posted by Yogadad

Hi Joy,

You can do planks on your forearms if you have wrist issues. You can also do plank-rollouts w/ a swiss ball which also wouldn't strain your wrists.

Off to Costco!

Best,

Scott

I can back up this recommendation. I do absolutely no crunches. I do no speciific ab work, just planks and variations of pushups, and I have six pack abs

[SharonNYC]

Originally Posted by KathAL79

It doesn't take much to talk me out of doing endless series of crunches. I've never much cared for them; they're one of few moves I find dreadfully boring.

I haven't done a crunch in years and years and years. It seems so obvious that the movement is distorted.

[alikruegs]

I haven't read all the links posted on this thread, but one thing that makes me question the rigor of condemning particular exercises is a lack of evidence. Let me be clear that by this I mean, where are all the people who do lots of crunches and are ending up on the operating table? Most people who work their abs probably do lots of crunches, and while this may be becoming less true now, every time I'm at the gym, I see people doing mostly crunch-based ab work. I just think the fear-factor of this kind of research is perhaps a bit overblown. I know more people with back problems who don't workout than who do (and do crunches). My policy is generally to listen to my body, and so being told that with my own body weight there are many exercises I shouldn't do makes me wonder.... Also, the crunching motion is a part of normal human body movement -- are we now supposed to change the way we get out of bed in the morning?

To be clear, I understand that a trainer may be interested in all the latest research - especially because a trainer is intructing others own how to move their bodies (rather than being in the bodies they move). I just think that if this research were so serious / crucial / important for the general population, we'd be seeing a lot more folks on the operating table because most people who work out have spent good portions of their lives doing crunches.

[HelloKitty88]

Originally Posted by HelloKitty88
I don't have any issues with this video...in fact I agree with it. BUT, I also think that crunches done in moderation isn't going to hurt the spine. To NEVER do a crunch is a bit extreme and not realistic..especially in the group fitness world and in the professional group fitness world. I don't think that doing a few crunches in an abs workout or class setting is going to cause major damage to the spine. Doing 100's of them day after day, yeah I can totally see how that would destroy the spine over the long hall.

Same with doing crunches on a stability ball...come on...a set or two isn't going cause the kind of damage that he's describing. I think there is something called "the middle of the road" and that is completely being missed in the fitness world.

My issue with this kind of advice is that they say don't do crunches on the floor or a ball but, all the BOSU stuff is never touched nor picked at. How can doing a set or two of good quality crunches on the floor or a ball be any more harmful to the spine than doing many of the movements in Pilates. And this point leads me to the underlying content of this kind of video which I"m not even going into on this forum. LOL!

LIke I said, I agree that lots of abs exercises still being done today can be harmful but, I also don't agree some should never be done. Moderation and proper form are two KEY elements in keeping injury free.

Why doesn't this guy pick at kickboxing and give the scoop of what damage it does to the sacrum, spine and hip joints...not to mention the knees?
I take a lot of issue with guys like this in the field picking at one thing but nothing is said about ALL the other programs in the fitness world that are HORRIBLE and word one is never said about them. Sorry, don't mean to be the disagreeing vfer here but...just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Yogadad

Hi Kitty (don't know if that's the name you prefer to go by but it's all I have),

First, McGill is a lower back expert (a biomechanist I believe is his title) and considered the BEST in the world at this, he's not just some internet guru writing a blog based on his opinions. We're talking about someone who has researched this meticulously, hand on with patients.

Second: He is particularly concerned with spinal flexion issues and how it relates to spinal injury (so he's not concerned most likely with kickboxing, the BOSU as a specific fitness tool, and the like, not to mention he doesn't claim expertise in knees and hips).

Third: He bases his opinion on what has been uncovered in his research, he's not concerned with what the group fitness world may be doing. That is the group fitness world's problem if they choose to be uninformed. I'm a personal trainer not a group fitness instructor so I can't speak with authority to what they are doing anyway.

Fourth: I'm not sure what underlying content you are referring to, it's pretty straightforward, nothing underlying that I can see. He explains how this type of activity can hurt the spine, no hidden agenda there. His agenda is injury prevention and a better way to protect the spine.

Fifth: I agree with you there is a lot of awful stuff in the fitness world, but again, Stuart McGill and this thread was based on the dangers of the crunch and alternative exercises.

You have to understand that I am not personally attacking you, I'm am speaking specifically about concerns regarding doing exercises that may ultimately be harmful on the spine. If the discs can only take so many repetitions of flexion, then it probably is good practice not to add extra stress to them because once they are damaged they won't heal themselves.

I know, as I mentioned previously in this thread I've had cervical spine surgery, there was nothing except surgery that could repair my neck and it was a miserable experience. Even though I wasn't injured through exercise, I would never knowingly recommend something that could put someone in the position of needing that kind of intervention.

I also feel strongly about distributing this information so that people may avoid doing something that could ultimately be harmful to them.

I agree with you that most likely some crunches here and there aren't what will lead most people to the operating table, BUT I think it is best avoided.

Lastly, I think it's great if you feel that you want to crunch away, but I think it's not a great idea to try to promote a point of view that is not based on research when the most current, cutting edge research proves otherwise.
I for one used to enjoy doing crunches, I was not a "crunch hater", but again, after what I've been through with my spine, I would never risk doing something for myself or clients that is completely unnecessary and may do harm and has very little up-side.


Take care,

Scott

CNN.

[kitty12]

Originally Posted by SharonNYC

I haven't done a crunch in years and years and years. It seems so obvious that the movement is distorted.

I consider Core Fusion to be crunch based. Also, Jill Miller has plenty of crunches in her work. Do you do those or skip those portions? So, that gets to...what is the definition of a crunch.

[kitty12]

Originally Posted by alikruegs

I haven't read all the links posted on this thread, but one thing that makes me question the rigor of condemning particular exercises is a lack of evidence. Let me be clear that by this I mean, where are all the people who do lots of crunches and are ending up on the operating table? Most people who work their abs probably do lots of crunches, and while this may be becoming less true now, every time I'm at the gym, I see people doing mostly crunch-based ab work. I just think the fear-factor of this kind of research is perhaps a bit overblown. I know more people with back problems who don't workout than who do (and do crunches). My policy is generally to listen to my body, and so being told that with my own body weight there are many exercises I shouldn't do makes me wonder.... Also, the crunching motion is a part of normal human body movement -- are we now supposed to change the way we get out of bed in the morning?

To be clear, I understand that a trainer may be interested in all the latest research - especially because a trainer is intructing others own how to move their bodies (rather than being in the bodies they move). I just think that if this research were so serious / crucial / important for the general population, we'd be seeing a lot more folks on the operating table because most people who work out have spent good portions of their lives doing crunches.

That's kind of along the lines of my thought. I would like more research than one person. I know he is an expert, but no one knows everything.

Also, what exactly is a crunch in the context of this research. I don't do any true crunches really, but I do many things as shown in the ACE link I posted earlier - and I consider almost all of them to be crunch variations. The ACE article also stated that crunches weren't a good exercise, but they show plenty of variations. So, what is the definition of a crunch in the research. Is it just a basic crunch? Does it include things like bicycles, crunches with twists, holding a crunch for an extended period of time (as in Core Fusion), pilates roll-ups, etc.

I also believe that things in moderation are generally OK. The spine is meant to move all different directions. If we ignore one direction, will we eventually create other issues?

There is also a difference between what someone with a lower back disc problem should do (or other lower back issue) versus someone with no major issues.

[Yogadad]

Originally Posted by alikruegs

I haven't read all the links posted on this thread, but one thing that makes me question the rigor of condemning particular exercises is a lack of evidence. Let me be clear that by this I mean, where are all the people who do lots of crunches and are ending up on the operating table? Most people who work their abs probably do lots of crunches, and while this may be becoming less true now, every time I'm at the gym, I see people doing mostly crunch-based ab work. I just think the fear-factor of this kind of research is perhaps a bit overblown. I know more people with back problems who don't workout than who do (and do crunches). My policy is generally to listen to my body, and so being told that with my own body weight there are many exercises I shouldn't do makes me wonder.... Also, the crunching motion is a part of normal human body movement -- are we now supposed to change the way we get out of bed in the morning?

To be clear, I understand that a trainer may be interested in all the latest research - especially because a trainer is intructing others own how to move their bodies (rather than being in the bodies they move). I just think that if this research were so serious / crucial / important for the general population, we'd be seeing a lot more folks on the operating table because most people who work out have spent good portions of their lives doing crunches.

Ali,

First, please at least watch the link I first posted about Stuart McGill because otherwise you are commenting blindly.

The notion that crunching is a natural movement because we use it to get out of bed is a flawed argument. You are speaking about one movement in a 24 hour period. You don't want to base an exercise from a functional perspective on that type of reasoning (my specialty as a personal trainer is functional training, and by this I'm not referring to the common misconception of functional training which are like circus exercises).

The abs are just one part of the core and it's primary function is stabilization. It works along with the spinal erectors (and other muscles) to keep us upright.

Think about how badly most people feel if they spend the day hunched over as opposed to a more upright position and you'll see that it's not a healthy position.

As far as the idea of where are all the people on the operating table, that I can't answer. But I do know of MANY people who have actually injured themselves doing a lot of crunches, and I'm talking super fit people with balanced exercise programs. Once they eliminated crunches they stopped having these issues.

If someone is going to do a small amount of crunches per week are they going to end up needing surgery, probably not, but there's lots of things that people do in life that aren't going to kill them in small amounts. It still doesn't mean it's a good idea. If in fact the crunching movement is compressing down on the front of the disc, which it IS doing in a crunch, then that in and of itself should be a red flag that it's not a very good movement for the spine, especially to do repeatedly as in a crunch.

Take care,

Scott