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Old 01-08-14, 09:16 AM  
eyefit
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Originally Posted by LoveVA View Post
They should be held to the same standard. Men are starting from a stronger base level of upper body strength, so if delaying the pull up requirement means that the women have more time to train so that they can meet a single standard, then that's okay. But they should be held to the same standard. Those physical tests are there for a reason. They need to be able to perform the same tasks on the front line. It could be lifting heavy equipment or carrying wounded soldiers away from danger. You need the strength to be able to do that.

Here's the thing. While most women failed the pull-up test, 45% of them were at least able to meet the minimum requirement. So it can be done.
Yep, I agree. Unfortunately, there may be some women that no matter how hard they train they can never do a pull up or meet the standard. I think that those women would have to be disqualified from joining the Marines. Not every person is qualified to be in a particular field no matter how much they want it. Like you said, they might need to perform particular tasks that would save not only their own life but the life of their comrades. If they can't do it, then they should enter a different part of the military where they can apply the skills they do possess. JMHO as always, though.
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Old 01-08-14, 09:41 AM  
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Originally Posted by eyefit View Post
I really think they need reconfigure the training methods so that the women can be on par with the men and meet the same standards. Caitlin's post discussed the fact that people often approach female training with lower standards to begin with because they assume their weakness, their inability and their frailty. IMHO, this just doesn't fly if one wants to be in the Marines. We are talking about a type of strength that is crucial in their field of duty. There lives may literally depend on it! A trained woman may never be able to do as many pull ups as a trained man, but I think they should at least be able to meet the minimum requirement.
Are there any VFers here who are trained lifeguards? Not trying to take this off topic, but aren't the prerequisite swim test standards for doing the lifeguard training course the same for women and men?

I guess one of my pet peeves in life is this new trend of calling for the elimination of certain standards and rules because one group can't meet them. You really want to make someone feel weak, frail, and damage their self-esteem? Instead of helping that person rise to the occasion and meet the standards as they are, announce that you are going to lower them for that particular group or eliminate them all together just because that particular group initially can't achieve them.

If women in the military need additional training to achieve better upper body strength, then so be it. In the end, it will make them better Marines, make them better prepared for the physical demands of combat and will do wonders for unit morale and cohesion.

That's my two cents. I'll back away now before I really start ranting.
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Old 01-08-14, 09:43 AM  
Debbie S.
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There are some men who can't do pull ups either.

I posted in the other thread here at VF that Pavel's, Grease the Groove, is what was instrumental in my ability to do pull ups. Plus, I'll be 57 this year, and we were required to do pull ups, etc. in school.

Since this is discussion is based around current issue about women having to do pull ups in the military, here's a great article:

http://www.military.com/military-fit...better-pullups
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Old 01-08-14, 09:57 AM  
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This is kind of a tangent, but hopefully still relevant to the discussion---I think part of the "standardization" process should be to re-examine those qualifying standards to determine that the components are actually relevant to performance on the job. In other words, should pull ups be required for their own sake or is that type of strength necessary to perform the job properly? I'm using pull ups as an example since that's in the topic sentence, but it could apply to any of the physical or mental tests that determine fitness for the military, police or fire personnel, lifeguards, etc. I'm not in any way qualified to determine those standards in those professions, but I have seen them applied specifically to exclude people who would be otherwise qualified and could perform the required work. That's my concern, as a child of an era where groups were excluded just to maintain the status quo. Generally, it would be great to apply the same legitimate fitness standards to all job applicants if that is truly what would happen. Rant over!
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Old 01-08-14, 10:37 AM  
eyefit
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Originally Posted by Debbie S. View Post
There are some men who can't do pull ups either.

I posted in the other thread here at VF that Pavel's, Grease the Groove, is what was instrumental in my ability to do pull ups. Plus, I'll be 57 this year, and we were required to do pull ups, etc. in school.

Since this is discussion is based around current issue about women having to do pull ups in the military, here's a great article:

http://www.military.com/military-fit...better-pullups
Great link Debbie. Thanks for posting that. One lady posted about pull ups on another forum (I forget when and where). She said the best way to be able to do pull ups was to do them regularly. What she did was install a bar in her hallway at home so that every time she walked by she would do a couple. Now if only I could get DH to agree to let me install a pull up bar in our hallway... hehe

I'm about to go back and do disc 2 of STS back and triceps and I'll be thinking of this thread and the blog article. I do wish I had something better for pull ups. I have Cathe's Turbo Tower and TBH I've never been happy with it for pull ups. It just feels awkward. I think I'm going to invest in one of those doorway pull up things. I want to finally be able to do a REAL pull up in 2014. I made and missed that goal the last two years and darn it I want to get there!
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Last edited by eyefit; 01-08-14 at 12:05 PM. Reason: back and TRICEPS not biceps...whoops
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Old 01-08-14, 10:39 AM  
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Originally Posted by cataddict View Post
this is kind of a tangent, but hopefully still relevant to the discussion---i think part of the "standardization" process should be to re-examine those qualifying standards to determine that the components are actually relevant to performance on the job. In other words, should pull ups be required for their own sake or is that type of strength necessary to perform the job properly?
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Old 01-08-14, 11:07 AM  
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Originally Posted by Jeanne Marie View Post
I think it's important to remember that everybody looks different, and everybody has their own idea of what looks good for them.

That doesn't make anybody wrong. If a woman doesn't want to look really muscular, that's okay. If she does, that's okay too.

What people need to realize is that good manners go a long way. If you are saying you think a really muscular look is "gross" or "manly", chances are you are insulting someone who has that look. The same way it is insulting someone long and lean if you say that it isn't okay to want the long and lean look. Tempering what we are saying with grace and compassion is important.

I think the majority of us look the way our genetics make us look. Of course we can be fit and strong and do what we can to be our best self, but generally your body type is going to dictate your general look. I lift pretty darn heavy and have some definition, but nobody is ever going to call me muscular. I am stronger than I look. I am fine with that, and prefer the look I have.... which is good because I'm not ever going to look different!
Fantastic post. We all have different bodies, goals, likes and dislikes when it comes to fitness. In the end, if we're moving it's all good.

P.S. Hope you are staying warm, Jeanne. Looking forward to the warmer temps soon, aren't you?
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Old 01-08-14, 11:43 AM  
sophiesmom
 
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Originally Posted by Debbie S. View Post
There are some men who can't do pull ups either.

I posted in the other thread here at VF that Pavel's, Grease the Groove, is what was instrumental in my ability to do pull ups. Plus, I'll be 57 this year, and we were required to do pull ups, etc. in school.

Since this is discussion is based around current issue about women having to do pull ups in the military, here's a great article:

http://www.military.com/military-fit...better-pullups
That is true. DH played HS football with huge (muscular) dudes who could lift obscene amounts of weight..but in gym class they struggled with pull ups!
The "skinny dudes" could bang them out like nothing.
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Old 01-08-14, 12:51 PM  
Diane135
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debbie S. View Post
There are some men who can't do pull ups either.

I posted in the other thread here at VF that Pavel's, Grease the Groove, is what was instrumental in my ability to do pull ups. Plus, I'll be 57 this year, and we were required to do pull ups, etc. in school.

Since this is discussion is based around current issue about women having to do pull ups in the military, here's a great article:

http://www.military.com/military-fit...better-pullups
Debbie you are always such a wealth of knowledge. I loved the link and Googled Grease the Groove and I'm intrigued. As someone with long, gangly arms, pushups and pull-ups have always eluded me. I'm going to give "greasing the groove" a try.
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Old 01-08-14, 01:44 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanne Marie View Post
I think it's important to remember that everybody looks different, and everybody has their own idea of what looks good for them.

That doesn't make anybody wrong. If a woman doesn't want to look really muscular, that's okay. If she does, that's okay too.

What people need to realize is that good manners go a long way. If you are saying you think a really muscular look is "gross" or "manly", chances are you are insulting someone who has that look. The same way it is insulting someone long and lean if you say that it isn't okay to want the long and lean look. Tempering what we are saying with grace and compassion is important.

I think the majority of us look the way our genetics make us look. Of course we can be fit and strong and do what we can to be our best self, but generally your body type is going to dictate your general look.
I love this post. Within the practical confines of one's own body type, people should be able to prefer any look they want for themselves without being made to feel bad about it: hard & muscular, slim & soft, super-built mass, lean & mean, average, athletic, etc. Just because you aim for certain aesthetics for yourself at any given time doesn't mean that you're judging others who choose or have a different look. Sometimes I think in embracing women's strength, muscles, and fitness we can accidentally swing in the opposite direction and shame women who have different goals than we do. Manners are essential!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanne Marie View Post
I had a complete stranger tell me one time that I needed to eat a sandwich. Now that's rude. It isn't any less rude than me walking up to someone overweight and telling them they need to quit eating so many sandwiches.
My best friend since my teens is naturally very slim and long-limbed, and she has to work like the dickens to put on muscular shape. In junior high people were always asking me if she had an eating disorder, and all her life people have commented on her being "scrawny," having knobby knees, or have told her to "eat something." She finds it just as hurtful as comments made to others about their overweight looks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyefit View Post
What do you guys think of the military delaying the pull up requirement for female recruits and talk of lowering the standard to accommodate women?
I think that if they've now realized they need to structure women's training differently than in the past to have them reach this standard, this one-time delay in the requirement is okay with me. But I agree with what some others have said about the disconnect between women wanting to be in the military, which obviously includes performing certain physical skills, and yet not wanting to look like they have those skills. That's a real shame!
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